(15:20:41) Zoni: oi
(15:21:03) Adam Zero: hui!
(15:21:07) Adam Zero: How goes it?
(15:21:09) Zoni: good
(15:21:29) Zoni: I'm trying to calucate execution rates for countries
(15:21:41) Adam Zero: dang.
(15:21:44) Zoni: not sure exactly how to do it, though
(15:21:52) Zoni: I have figures for executions and population
(15:22:04) Zoni: do I just divide, then?
(15:22:18) Adam Zero: That's the naive way to do it.
(15:22:27) Adam Zero: (Naive meaning... without further info, not the offensive meaning).
(15:22:28) Zoni: I thought it looked wrong
(15:22:47) Adam Zero: You'd have to also consider how many of the population are convincted for offenses with executable punishments.
(15:22:57) Adam Zero: for instance, in Islam, rape is an executable offence.
(15:23:10) Adam Zero: However, you need 2 male witnesses or 4 female witnesses to convict someone of rape.
(15:23:19) Zoni: so I'd need death row numbers, too
(15:23:23) Adam Zero: Ya.
(15:23:33) Zoni: trickier to get
(15:25:02) Adam Zero: Exactly.
(15:25:20) Adam Zero: There's a good website for social sciences data though... can't remember the name though.
(15:25:24) Adam Zero: It's like Pullap or something.
(15:25:33) Zoni: In China, "In the past the government collected a "bullet fee (å弹费)" from the relatives of the condemned."
(15:25:39) Adam Zero: Hahahahaa!!!!
(15:26:02) Zoni: that's some cold shit
(15:26:17) Adam Zero: Indeed.
(15:26:19) Adam Zero: China would do that.
(15:26:45) Adam Zero: Supposedly in their schools, there is this "teacher" that runs from room to room just yelling at the kids and telling them to shut up.
(15:26:52) Adam Zero: This person doesn't actually teach or anything.
(15:27:03) Zoni: nice
(15:28:09) Adam Zero: Yep... job securite.
(15:29:35) Adam Zero: bullet fee.
(15:29:40) Adam Zero: That's an awesome album name
(15:29:42) Zoni: heh
(15:31:08) Zoni: looks like China's all over the place
(15:31:25) Zoni: in more ways than one
(15:31:32) Adam Zero: Ya... I have a feeling the next 30 years might have a civil rights movement.
(15:31:33) Adam Zero: Hahah
(15:33:11) Zoni: I feel like we have one more bout of reactionary governmental communism, then a gradual easing off into quasi-capitalism, Shanghai-style
(15:34:42) Zoni: what I need is a nice table of capital punishment data covering maybe 10 years, all figures from a single source
(15:34:49) Zoni: and I'm just not finding it
(15:35:09) Adam Zero: What's your hypothesis?
(15:36:23) Zoni: just to see which countries are most kill happy, and to look at the numbers and see what that might say about each
(15:37:03) Zoni: most kill happy by rate and tally, I should clarify
(15:37:30) Zoni: wikipedia say china has the highest tally, but Singapore has the highest rate
(15:37:50) Adam Zero: Well... China's population simply dwarfs Singapore.
(15:38:00) Zoni: exactly
(15:38:40) Adam Zero: You'd kind of expect the country with highest capital punishment rate to have a lower population.
(15:40:17) Zoni: yeah
(15:40:49) Zoni: and looking at just what it takes to calculate it, I think capital punishement figures aren't really indicative of anything by themselves
(15:41:26) Adam Zero: China is bloodthirsty compared to modern Europe with capital punishment.
(15:41:50) Zoni: isn't it abolished in the EU
(15:42:46) Adam Zero: huh, I have no ide.a
(15:42:49) Adam Zero: What are your thoughts?
(15:44:48) Zoni: It seems reasonable to me that an offense (or series of) can be so egregious that, barring genuine rehabilitation, the risk that that person could have contact w/ human beings is unacceptable
(15:45:23) Zoni: where exactly to draw that line, I don't know off the top of my head
(15:45:45) Adam Zero: That's close to me, actually.
(15:45:52) Adam Zero: I mean, prison has two purposes:
(15:46:02) Adam Zero: rehabilitation and confinement.
(15:46:08) Zoni: right
(15:46:11) Adam Zero: If someone has no psychological hope...
(15:46:22) Adam Zero: why waste everybody's time killing him by imprisonment
(15:46:43) Adam Zero: (him or her)
(15:46:58) Adam Zero: I just do'nt knkow what to think about public executions.
(15:47:23) Zoni: I do think the hair-splitting over "humane" ways of killing are a joke
(15:48:15) Zoni: as if sparing someone we want dead anyway a traumatic last few minutes or seconds puts us on any kind of moral high ground
(15:48:52) Zoni: The death penalty has been totally abolished in almost all European countries (47 out of 50). A moratorium on the death penalty is a condition of membership in the Council of Europe and abolition is considered a central value to the European Union.
Only in Belarus and Kazakhstan (a small part of Kazakhstan is in Europe) is it still practiced - this being one reason for which they have been refused membership into the Council of Europe.
(15:49:09) Zoni: Russia maintains it for ordinary crimes, but observes a moratorium in practice. Their last execution was in 1996.
(15:49:33) Adam Zero: huh
(15:49:46) Adam Zero: Strange, and their crime rates aren't really that much worse than America as far as I know.
(15:50:19) Zoni: pretty sure it's a difference of philosophy over there, not practicallity
(15:54:30) Adam Zero: True.
(15:54:45) Adam Zero: Well.. I always hear Americans complaining about the cost of our prison systems.
(15:54:56) Adam Zero: I guess our figured lead the world in the amount of imprisonment.
(15:55:11) Adam Zero: *figure
(15:55:20) Adam Zero: *figures and by this I mean rate.
(15:55:23) Zoni: right
(15:55:50) Zoni: I think prisoners should have to work to stay alive
(15:56:33) Zoni: not Battle Royale-style, but there should be an similar element of economic risk that exists on the outside
(15:56:42) Adam Zero: es
(15:56:43) Adam Zero: *yes
(15:56:58) Adam Zero: I guess a large concern is the amount of people who get reimprisoned.
(15:57:04) Adam Zero: I am all for chain gangs.
(15:57:17) Zoni: there's plenty of rocks that need breaking
(15:57:22) Adam Zero: Lol.
(15:57:58) Adam Zero: And after release, they can make it singin' blues traditionals in the night clubs.
(15:58:32) Zoni: Or, maybe would could defer any economic gains beyond basic survival until after they get out
(15:59:17) Zoni: I'm not sure what would cross the line into cruelty, but there could be a free outside place to sleep, and sleeping on a bed indoors could be a privilege
(15:59:34) Adam Zero: Haha
(16:00:19) Zoni: the idea being, rooms and food cost taxpayers money
(16:00:26) Adam Zero: Indeed
(16:01:14) Zoni: and gym equipment and cable tv and all that
(16:01:17) Zoni: and laundry
(16:02:49) Adam Zero: ya.
(16:03:01) Adam Zero: Heck, minus the anal rapage and beatings, prison has a lot of amenities.
(16:03:27) Adam Zero: And those things shouldn't be the downside to prison.
(16:03:47) Zoni: Yeah. Even I don't have cable.
(16:04:01) Zoni: This is what got me thinking to begin with
(16:04:17) Zoni: I think the "unusal" part of "cruel and unusal" screws us up
(16:06:14) Zoni: it's used as a loophole for those who want capital punishment abolished
(16:06:26) Zoni: and it's sloppy language to begin w/
(16:07:28) Zoni: I'm sure it seemed like a sensible qualifier for "cruel" when it was written,
(16:08:06) Adam Zero: Family Guy: "Should we reword the second amendment, though?"
(16:08:21) Adam Zero: "What do you mean, how could it be any clearer? Everyone has the right to a pair of bear arms to hang in their home!"
(16:08:33) Zoni: heh
(16:08:35) Zoni: like that shirt
(16:11:13) Adam Zero: I have to take off.
(16:11:23) Adam Zero: Be sure to post whatever you come up with.
(16:11:27) Zoni: will do
(16:11:29) Adam Zero: peace
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